Traveller-digest    Wednesday, September 1 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1047



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tank:antitank arms race
re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)
re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)
Re: Honor Harrington books
Re: Lost Keith Supplements
Re: tank:antitank arms race
Lost Keith Supplements
Re: Lost Keith Supplements
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
Re: Some From The Vaults 
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
New CT editions?
Re: New CT editions?
Re: [www] Freelance Traveller Announcement
Re: Sector Viewer
Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters
Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters
Modular cargo ship
Re: Modular cargo ship
Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
Re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)
Advert:  New Mailing List - A Gamer's Life
Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters
Testing the Waters
Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters
Re: Modular cargo ship
Re: Testing the Waters
Re: tank:antitank arms race

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:34:28 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: tank:antitank arms race

>Ian Ferguson writes:
>> I have a question regarding the progression of AFV armour and antitank
>> weapons: just how tough is it for a TL 9 gun to destroy an AFV built to TL
>> 10? TL 11?  When does it become essentially impossible to knock out an AFV?
>>  Under normal circumstances, I would expect that a WWII German "Hunting
>> Tiger" with 120 mm gun has little or no chance of killing an US Abrams
>> tank.  Opinions?
>
>It depends somewhat on the design philosophy behind the vehicle (for TL 9 vs
>TL 11, I have no idea offhand).  No WWII tank has a noticeable chance of
>killing an Abrams (or any modern MBT) from the front.  Any of them can
>kill an
>abrams from the side or re
>ar.

Short answer: the armor values and penetration values (or equivalent in
your combat system of choice) are intended to account for this.  Depending
on the system, it is generally not impossible for a TL9 weapon to penetrate
TL11 armor, only very difficult.

Now for the long answer;

There are several questions here.  One is what is the situation in reality
vs. Traveller (the presumed context).  On the one hand, reality is the
resource we all turn to whne attempting to answer the question of
capability in the game's context.  On the other hand, reality does not
always match with the game's premises.

Your own question provides an example:  A TL9 MBT gun will be a discarding
sabot propelled chemically (perhaps Electrotherochemically) of about 120mm
diameter with a finned dart travelling Very Fast to use Kinetic Energy to
penetrate a target armor.  The TL11 armored vehicle wil probably have some
form of active defense system that is designed to break the penetrator
longitudinally to prevent it's greatest strength from coming to bear; the
focus of a heavy projectile travelling at speed on a small cross sectional
area.

In the Traveller context, however, a TL9 planet which can reasonably be
expected to encounter ground forces of TL11 will find a way to manufacture
a weapon at TL9 which is capable of, under the right circumstances,
defeating the TL11 armor (that they know of) under the right circumstances
(from ambush, with numerical superiority, etc.)

The problem of the AFV vs. AFV-defeating gun will continue to be relevant
beyond a simple TL comparison.  The training and specific equipment must be
taken into consideration.  If the U.S. Armored Cavalry units in Desert
Storm were the ones equipped with T-72s and the Iraqis had M1A1 and -A2
Abrams I think the outcome may have been similar (not the casualty ratios,
mind you, just the final result).  Training is one of the major keys to
success ina  military conflict - especially knowing your equipment's (and
you enemy's) strengths and weaknesses.

Incidentially, the Jagdpanzer ("Hunting Tiger") VI with its 12.8 cm main
gun could, in tests, penetrate 148mm of 30 degree sloped hard steel at 2000
meters according to one source.  Definitely enough to penetrate the average
Bradley CFV, but the Abrams?  I did not quickly find armor comparisons
among different AFVs on the Web, maybe someone else can say.  It would make
a good comparison of production vehicles from TL5(?) and TL8 (M1A1 = 1980).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:32:40 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)

Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
I have a question regarding the progression of AFV armour and antitank
weapons: just how tough is it for a TL 9 gun to destroy an AFV built to TL
10? TL 11?  When does it become essentially impossible to knock out an AFV?
 Under normal circumstances, I would expect that a WWII German "Hunting
Tiger" with 120 mm gun has little or no chance of killing an US Abrams
tank.  Opinions?
>>>>>>>>>
Did someone read Tom Townsend's _Panzer Spirit_?

It opens when a US Army tank commander on maneuver in Germany 
finds a Jagdpanther, left over from WW2, lying abandoned and overgrown.
He approaches it on foot, and its cannon goes off - wrecking his
M60 and killing his crew. Some old booby-trap?

A brother of mine in the US Army heard the first bit and said, "NO WAY
a Jagdpanther's cannon could do that!!" I grinned at him and agreed.

He read the book after I did and loved it. A good modern monster story
with some fantasy elements.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:44:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)

Walt Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
Did someone read Tom Townsend's _Panzer Spirit_?

It opens when a US Army tank commander on maneuver in Germany 
finds a Jagdpanther, 
>>>>>>>>>>
I did, of course, intend to write "Jagdpanzer" here and elsewhere. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:53:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington books

> A draft copy of Chapter 1 of the new, NYR
> Honor Harrington hardcover, Ashes of Honor
> is available from her publisher, Baen, at
> the URL below.  Baen will probably post a
> new chapter every few weeks or so until the
> book is releases (no I don't know when that will
> be).

Speaking of Baen, I just spotted _A Civil Campaign_ in a local store;
the new Vorkosigan hardcover is *out* (and it's set after _Komarr_, for 
those who may be wondering).  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:03:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Lost Keith Supplements

Thanks, Paul,

I, for one, appreciate the hard work that you've gone to in bringing
this project to fruition, and am very happy to hear that the
supplements will be on their way this month.  I know that it hasn't
been easy on you, and I'm glad to hear that you've maintained such
relatively good spirits throughout the ordeal, to judge by your post.
I hope that once this is done, you'll be able to return your focus to
school and work, and relax a bit.  I'm sure this had been a burden
and inconvenience in your life, much more so that you originally
thought it would be, and imagine that you'll be very glad when it's
over.  Thanks for giving us the update.

Regards,
Jason

From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>

> Actually, I posted updates and many people missed them and then said I
> never posted updates...  which is why I made a web site... and then
> apparently many folks missed the post about the site :P 

<<Snip Welcome Announcement of Supplements' Release This Month>>

> Cordially,
> Paul Sanders
=============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: tank:antitank arms race

Peter H. Brenton writes:

> Incidentially, the Jagdpanzer ("Hunting Tiger") VI with its 12.8 cm main
> gun could, in tests, penetrate 148mm of 30 degree sloped hard steel at 2000
> meters according to one source.  Definitely enough to penetrate the average
> Bradley CFV, but the Abrams?  I did not quickly find armor comparisons
> among different AFVs on the Web, maybe someone else can say.  It would make
> a good comparison of production vehicles from TL5(?) and TL8 (M1A1 = 1980).

Getting actual armor thickness figures for modern vehicles is challenging.  Figures I've heard for frontal armor on an M1 are in the range of 550mm hard steel equivalent (though this is after accounting for slope).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:34:55 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Lost Keith Supplements

Ack! I knew I'd forget something in my previous post (my thanks to William
Barnett-Lewis for reminding me of this). 

Seeing as how many folks have MOVED since they sent in their payments -
some over a year ago now - I would not mind being swamped with emails (off
the list of course) from everyone who ordered listing their current
snail-mail address so that I can make a final cross-check of it against the
mailing labels that I made out months ago. I realize it might be a minor
irritation for some, but it'll save both you and I headaches down the road.

My email addy is: timmon@primenet.com

Thanks again,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:47:11 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Keith Supplements

Suzette Dollar
1188 E Camelback Rd
Phoenix, AZ 85014


This is my work address as it is easier to get packages there.  Thanks for 
all the hard work.

Suz


At 01:34 PM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Ack! I knew I'd forget something in my previous post (my thanks to William
>Barnett-Lewis for reminding me of this).
>
>Seeing as how many folks have MOVED since they sent in their payments -
>some over a year ago now - I would not mind being swamped with emails (off
>the list of course) from everyone who ordered listing their current
>snail-mail address so that I can make a final cross-check of it against the
>mailing labels that I made out months ago. I realize it might be a minor
>irritation for some, but it'll save both you and I headaches down the road.
>
>My email addy is: timmon@primenet.com
>
>Thanks again,
>Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:14:23 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
> 
> > Start?  The Canon Wars between the various factions *never* end in
> > here, they just die down when the participates get exhausted, only to
> > resume again a few weeks/months later. <g>  We won't admit it, but we
> > secretly like it that way...the constant fighting make us stronger
> > (hum, sounds like DBZ). <g>
> 
> DBZ?

Dragon Ball Z...my 6 year old nephew got me hooked this summer. <g>

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:12:46 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Some From The Vaults 

> Just another reason I hate AOL.

I love AOL, they send me free drink coasters every week. ;)

Of course I'd never hook up with their service.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:16:38 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> Are they showing Third Season Reboot, from Canada?  It's excellent. Really
> deep stories and character development.

Third season just finished up this week. I had never seen them before
starting to watch this summer. I suppose from the way things ended
there won't be a fourth season.
 
Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:22:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: New CT editions?

Did I read correctly a while back that someone is offering CT "collector's
editions" in 8.5 x 11 landscape format?  I don't see any mention of it on
Marc Miller's website, so what's going on?

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:44:16 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: New CT editions?

I have posted a copy of the announcement that I received from Marc on
Traveller Downport at http://www.downport.com/news/CollectorEdition.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> Did I read correctly a while back that someone is offering CT "collector's
> editions" in 8.5 x 11 landscape format?  I don't see any mention of it on
> Marc Miller's website, so what's going on?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:09:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [www] Freelance Traveller Announcement

> Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
>>Possible a note explaining that clicking on the logo shows you an index...
>
>The ALT tag for the graphic should say this - will look into it on return
>from GenCon Uk 99

It might, but when all you see is the graphic...

Mind you, I haven't been to the site for a while. You might have fixed it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:28:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Sector Viewer

On 08/30/99 23:52:00 jsmage@earthlink.net wrote:
>I still have reservations about FT, 'cause IMHO some of their 
>economics is a little shady and/or...shall I say...conservative?  

	Care to expand on that?  I'm always interested in hearing
people's point of view on the book.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:21:36 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters

>not, then *weg*  only that

Can somebody tell me what "*weg*" actually means? I've never met anyine who
uses it before.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:01:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters

_w_ide _e_yed _g_rin.

Nick Bradbeer wrote:
> 
> >not, then *weg*  only that
> 
> Can somebody tell me what "*weg*" actually means? I've never met anyine who
> uses it before.
> 
> Nick

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:41:38 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Modular cargo ship

I designed a modular ship in GT that had the capability to carry 3 100dton
pods or 10 30dton moduals (from the modular cutter). It was capable of Jump
6 unloaded, and Jump 3 Loaded.

The stats are in the process of being put on my website, but first I got to
de-excel the tables :-(

Darryl
Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:02:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modular cargo ship

dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au writes:
> I designed a modular ship in GT that had the capability to carry 3 100dton
> pods or 10 30dton moduals (from the modular cutter). It was capable of Jump
> 6 unloaded, and Jump 3 Loaded.
> 
> The stats are in the process of being put on my website, but first I got to
> de-excel the tables :-(

There's a number of ways of accomplishing that effect, and some debate over what the best way of doing LASH operations (which is what this is, and is discussed in GT:FT).  That sounds like a fairly small ship, which probably isn't the best way to implement LASH operations.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:14:53 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters

>_w_ide _e_yed _g_rin.


Is this generally used as a sort of smirk?

Nick
- ---
Trying to replicate a wide-eyed grin and still generally confused.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:21:36 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

>Dragon Ball Z...my 6 year old nephew got me hooked this summer. <g>
:-( The German edition of DB just started on the TV this week...
...they took out all the funny dirty old man bits of muten roshis and
the characters have unbearable childish voices. I absolutely hate dubs and
German TV!

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:48:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tank:antitank arms race (OT)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> Did someone read Tom Townsend's _Panzer Spirit_?
> 
> It opens when a US Army tank commander on maneuver in Germany
> finds a Jagdpanther, left over from WW2, lying abandoned and overgrown.
> He approaches it on foot, and its cannon goes off - wrecking his
> M60 and killing his crew. Some old booby-trap?

Wasn't that the one with the experimental Jagdpanzer made with mithril,
that went on a one-AFV rampage after its Nazi-implanted spirit "woke
up"?  Amusing read, especially out in the field.  (How'd you like to
read this during a rotation at Hohenfels? *grin*)

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:48:27 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Advert:  New Mailing List - A Gamer's Life

        This list exists to give gamers of all preferences a place to
    discuss gaming life, not just game systems.  Everything but flames are
    open for discussion, so long as it has something to do with RPGing.
    LARP, FTF, PBEM, whatever.

        Game Session Dynamics: How many arbiters in your game? Do you use
    a team leader to call out actions? How many folks does it take for a
    good game? What are the rules of ettiquette? How should one handle
    Munchkins?

        Lifestyles of the Bored and Geeky: A study in gaming furniture,
    recipes for munchies, book reviews, etc.

        Help & Humour: Tips, jokes, product alerts, recent events of
    interest, personal gaming anecdotes, etc. Of course this is an area
    that might justify cross-posting.

        Contacts & Personals: "I live "here", can you game with me?"
 
        To subscribe, send a message to "AGamersLife@atlantic-online.ns.ca"
with "subscribe" (no quote marks) as the subject.  You should get a "Welcome
to..." message within an hour saving you are subscribed.

        --Michel
        (List Admin, A Gamer's Life)

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:14:19 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters

From: Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters


>>_w_ide _e_yed _g_rin.


    Wide Evil Grin, not Wide Eyed Grin.  The sort of grin that the GM gives
you are you attack a Beach-Ball of Doom in your Type S Scout.

>Is this generally used as a sort of smirk?


    Yes.

>Nick
>---
>Trying to replicate a wide-eyed grin and still generally confused.

    Try a Wide Evil Grin.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:24:01 -0700
From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Testing the Waters

I'm looking at opening up one or two NPC spots in my Confederation of
Nightrim TNE game.  This game is played via ICQ and runs live about once
every two or so weeks.

A number of logs are available on the site for those who maybe interested in
knowing what's happened and figuring out the flavor of the game.

As I'm also sending this message to the TML I should warn you that it is a
TNE game and Virus will be making a special guest appearance along with Cher
and Gillian Anderson.

I tend only to skim through my TML-Digest so you might be better off
replying directly to me if you're interested.

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Say G'nite Hoss.
- -Ashtabula-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:53:48 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: "Tender"/"Riders" combos as freighters

>    Wide Evil Grin, not Wide Eyed Grin.  The sort of grin that the GM gives
>you are you attack a Beach-Ball of Doom in your Type S Scout.

Now that is what I had been assuming "weg" meant.  :)


___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:14:35 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Modular cargo ship

- ----------
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Cc: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Modular cargo ship
> Date: Wednesday, 01 September, 1999 8:02 PM
> 
> dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au writes:
> > I designed a modular ship in GT that had the capability to carry 3
100dton
> > pods or 10 30dton moduals (from the modular cutter). It was capable of
Jump
> > 6 unloaded, and Jump 3 Loaded.
> 
> There's a number of ways of accomplishing that effect, and some debate
over what the best way of doing LASH operations (which is what this is, and
is discussed in GT:FT).  That sounds like a fairly small ship, which
probably isn't the best way to implement LASH operations.

Possibly not, but it's probably more gameable than a 20,000-ton ship with
20+ 800-ton lighters.  I'm working on a fast (J-4+) freighter design that
has provision for an internal cargo pod in the 30-50 ton range (convertible
from express cargo ship to VIP transport with a module swap) and drop
tanks.*  In lieu of drop tanks, it can also carry oversized cargo pods for
low-Jump freight hauling.  

(This is not an invitation to restart the drop tank debate I'm ruling that
drop tanks get dropped in Jump space, so you need a little extra fuel to
carry them partway through jump before you drop them.  Dropping tanks isn't
a trivial affair because it involves overstressing the drive, but when
speed really matters, this ship can do J-5 ... once.)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:46:48 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Testing the Waters

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> I'm looking at opening up one or two NPC spots in my Confederation of
> Nightrim TNE game.  This game is played via ICQ and runs live about once
> every two or so weeks.
> 
> A number of logs are available on the site for those who maybe interested in
> knowing what's happened and figuring out the flavor of the game.
> 
> As I'm also sending this message to the TML I should warn you that it is a
> TNE game and Virus will be making a special guest appearance along with Cher
> and Gillian Anderson.

Virus, I can deal with.  Gillian Anderson, okay.  But _Cher_?!?  :-P

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:55:17 GMT
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)
Subject: Re: tank:antitank arms race

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

>Peter H. Brenton writes:
>
>> Incidentially, the Jagdpanzer ("Hunting Tiger") VI with its 12.8 cm main
>> gun could, in tests, penetrate 148mm of 30 degree sloped hard steel at 2000
>> meters according to one source.  Definitely enough to penetrate the average
>> Bradley CFV, but the Abrams?  I did not quickly find armor comparisons
>> among different AFVs on the Web, maybe someone else can say.  It would make
>> a good comparison of production vehicles from TL5(?) and TL8 (M1A1 = 1980).
>
>Getting actual armor thickness figures for modern vehicles is challenging.  Figures
> I've heard for frontal armor on an M1 are in the range of 550mm hard steel equivalent
> (though this is after accounting for slope).
>

I pulled these stats from GDW's Desert Shield Fact Book. The armor
values are equivalent to X millimeters of hard steel. The penetration
is in mm of hard steel at an effective range of 1000 to 2000 meters.
The 

Tank            Armor   Round   Penetration
- ---------------------------------------
M1              350     APFSDS  435
M1A1 & IPM1     400     APFSDS  650
M1A1 w/DU       600     APFSDS  650
King Tiger II   200     AP      175



================================================================================
- - Pete                                                      j_pete@bellsouth.net

"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the
 lash."                                              -Winston Churchill

Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833

- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$
!O M-- V- PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++
G e+ h--- r+++ y+++
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

NOG #74   Nova 700

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1047
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe
"local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
